An interesting scenario - what do you think?

Joker99352

Legacy Member
I took a philosophy course during freshman year of college, and one of the lessons our professor taught us about was the idea of an object's components and its overall composition. The example that he used was a pen, and it went like this: Suppose you have a pen that has run out of ink, so you replace the cartridge with a new one. Later, the bottom half breaks and you must replace that as well. Before long, the top part breaks, and you replace that, too.

Now you have a pen that is composed of entirely new parts. Is it still the same pen as the one you started with?
 
I took a philosophy course during freshman year of college, and one of the lessons our professor taught us about was the idea of an object's components and its overall composition. The example that he used was a pen, and it went like this: Suppose you have a pen that has run out of ink, so you replace the cartridge with a new one. Later, the bottom half breaks and you must replace that as well. Before long, the top part breaks, and you replace that, too.

Now you have a pen that is composed of entirely new parts. Is it still the same pen as the one you started with?

It isn't.

Over a certain period of time, no one part of your pen has lasted until that moment.
Therefore, there is nothing left of your pen, no essence of your original pen at all.
Over that period of time, parts of your pen had persisted, but now none is left; thus, your original pen is no more.
 
"Original pen" is an interesting term, since it's clearly still a pen, and it still resembles the original. But by that logic, none of us are the same people we were when we were born, since our bodies periodically replace tissue and bone until we're an entirely new physical entity than we were before. But I do think that human beings have a sort of essence about them, unlike inanimate objects, which allows us to retain our identities through time. But then human beings aren't necessarily defined by physical bodies to begin with.
 
Well the logical answer would be no, that it is not the same pen that you had started with, but rather just resembles the same form that you began with. The forms of inanimate objects always stay the same, meaning the outline, the very most littlest essence of the form will always remain the same. A chair will always be a chair if the essence of the form and the purpose stays the same, just as does the understanding of a pen. And you are correct in stating that a person's form does indeed have an essence, a form, a personality, that although dynamic and subject to change, will be defined by the form of human body. We recognize a person by their form, by their physical body, and not by the ever changing tissues and bones that structure that form, but rather just by the pure essence of said form.

Furthermore, it is not the physical body that necessarily defines a human in the sense of humanistic characteristics such as language, personality, traits, and such. But rather it is the mind that really defines the human as human, but it is the form of the body that is perceivable to our eye that resembles what a human is supposedly. This is due to the fact that the human being cannot define the mind, and therefore cannot define the part that allows the human to be human, and thus we must use the second best form known to us, and that is our physical bodies. Our bodies are the essence that our minds recognize as a human shape, but it is the capability of our minds that define humans from the rest of the animals.
 
What's interesting about it isn't the answer to the question, but the reasoning used in arriving at that answer. But I do think there's a separate "essence" to human beings and objects, but it's dependent on people's perceptions. I don't think it's the same pen, either, but that has some interesting implications when you apply it to other 'objects' or ideas.
 
this is a great question. It has a lot of connections to materialism. Especially since us humans are pretty much all new cells every 7 years or so. So if you commit a crime, how can you put someone in jail for 25 years if after 7 years they are a completely new person? Did this new person really commit the crime? I think it is an interesting question but I am not a materialist and I don't think that's the way things work :)
 
What's interesting about it isn't the answer to the question, but the reasoning used in arriving at that answer. But I do think there's a separate "essence" to human beings and objects, but it's dependent on people's perceptions. I don't think it's the same pen, either, but that has some interesting implications when you apply it to other 'objects' or ideas.

Yeah, it's the logic used in obtaining the answer that is interesting. I think that human beings have essences, as do objects, as does anything. That essence is going to be perceived differently by different people. The pen is the same in the fact that it is the same object as the one you had before, and it is made up of the same general parts (but not the same as you had before), so the form of the pen stays the same. But if you are thinking in material terms, the pen is not the same pen because you did not use the same parts that were broken to put it back together; which in terms of this question is impossible.

I think it's incredibly interesting!
 
Then the issue is deciding which is more significant: an object's physical body or it's spiritual 'essence'? I don't really think of material objects exclusively, but I also think there's a big difference between an object (like a pen) and an intelligent human being. I suppose that's why there are different 'schools' of thought within philosophy, which sometimes conflict with one another.
 
The thing about the pen is that ... it's a pen. Replacing all the parts means that you've got an entirely different pen on your hands than the one you started with.

With humans, we're more than the sum of our physical parts. We have personalities that stick with us throughout our lives, barring some extreme damage to the brain that causes a complete shift in how we act and our memories. I suppose that can lead into a similar question, then: if we lose our memories and gain a completely different persona, are we still the same person we were before?
 
The thing about the pen is that ... it's a pen. Replacing all the parts means that you've got an entirely different pen on your hands than the one you started with.

With humans, we're more than the sum of our physical parts. We have personalities that stick with us throughout our lives, barring some extreme damage to the brain that causes a complete shift in how we act and our memories. I suppose that can lead into a similar question, then: if we lose our memories and gain a completely different persona, are we still the same person we were before?

You are right in saying that it is just a pen, and it is a different pen because you replaced all the parts. But the form or the essence of the pen (what a pen actually is, which in this case would be its function), is still the same. The idea doesn't change, but the pen's material components do.

I like your question. I have discussed it several times over the course of my philosophy undergrad minor, and often found that the answer was that our memories are what gives us our identities, they are what make us out to be who we are, for they help us shape our perspectives about ourselves, our lives, and our surroundings based on whether the memories are good or bad, or neutral. If one were to lose their memory, their physical body may retain the same form, they are still human, but they may not still be Brad, or Angela, or Michael... for the personality of the person, and the mind that holds the memories allows to be said person and make decisions based on said person's personality and morals. Memories enforce morals, as memories enforce opinions, because opinions come from experience, or knowledge and thus allows us to draw our opinions on said universal morals (we take a side and choose who to be based on what morals we choose to acknowledge as important). So having no memories causes us to lose our opinions, our pre-conceived thoughts, and all notions of how to act in certain situations and thus we would have to take on a new persona, and become a new person.

But I think there needs to be a distinction made. If we are to lose our memories but gain a new persona, then whatever that persona is, we become, or we change into. Values change as memories are obtained, and perspectives reflect our ever growing understanding of situations that play key roles in deciding who we are. I think though, that in-so-long as there are trace memories of who we once were, we will always have a part of our old self, even if that old self is not in action (if that makes sense), which does give way to the possibility of reverting back to ones old self, if enough trace memory can be recovered.

However, if one were to lose their memory and not gain a new persona, not learn anything new, not create new opinions nor have any new perspectives, but rather be in a place of utter nothingness, then we have a different problem on our hands. Do we classify a person like this as the same person as before? No, not normally, so then why would we classify someone who takes on a totally new persona as the same person as they were beforehand? We wouldn't.

Unless that new persona was faked, then of course the memories would still all be there, and that person would be the same but with just a veiled front.

I think my question here would be, would that person who has lost their memory and must create a new persona, would they go down a similar path as to who they were prior, or would they take on completely different aspects? How much of personality is hardwired and how much of it depends on our learning, surroundings and memories? I think our person has everything to do with our knowledge, our memories and our surroundings and how we know how to act within those surrounding situations.

I have a lot more to say on this topic, but alas it is 5am and I probably should let me brain rest. I would love to hear all your thoughts though, because mine might just change!
 
Dang, that was a lot to digest!

For the pen, it's an entirely new pen, even though the function is the same. If I bought an identical pen to replace the first one instead of replacing it, the function is still the same, but it's still a new pen.

I think a lot of who we are is made from our experiences. I know I wouldn't be near the person I am without all the things I've gone through in life. It's hard to say what exactly is made from us from nature and what is from nurture, but I suppose that's an ever-ongoing debate. We'd have a very interesting case study if someone could identify Benjamin Kyle - he has dissociative amnesia and has no clue who he is, with no one stepping forward to identify him.
 
Well that begs the question: can people change? And what is 'change,' anyway? Again, I suppose it would be a matter of deciding between a person's physical body and their "essence," whatever that is defined as.

It gets even more complicated when you bring up the idea of perception, and what constitutes reality. Is it real because we perceive it, or do we perceive it because it is real?

I think a person's brain is "programmed" in a certain way, but that's subject to change under certain conditions. The first thing that comes to mind is the story of Phineas Gage, a man whose personality and behavior (reportedly) changed after his head was impaled with a railroad spike in an accident. Was he the same person after the accident as he was before (save for the giant hole in his head)?
 
It is still the same pen, same parts, the only difference is that the it composed of new parts. The reason why I do say that it is still the same is it because it is has the same purpose which is to write. The same as the human, some of us experience to change our blood, our heart, our liver but we are still the same person, the way we think is still the same, the only thing that is difference is that the blood, heart, or liver that we use is from other people but we are still the same.
 
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